Tolerance and diversity
My guess is the words "tolerance/diversity" trigger different emotions in all of us. In our culture those words get jammed down our throats. We who are Christians are for tolerance and diversity, but we'd also all agree that there are limits to both. One of the presenters at a retreat I just attended talked about our need to get a handle on 3 things:
1. The essentials of what I believe--things I'm willing to die for that are clearly taught in Scripture.
2. Things that I feel strongly about but am not willing to die for (beliefs that are important to me yet aren't clear enough in Scripture for me to get fanatical about, therefore I agree to disagree with others in these areas).
3. Things that fit in the "who-gives-a-rip" category. Things not worth fighting about or wasting time on.
As I look over the church landscape I'm saddened. So many of our churches are fighting and dying for things that I believe fall under number 2 or 3. I'm not talking about things like the deity of Christ (a category #1 all the way). I'm talking about things like "your opinion of Rick Warren" or "views of baptism" or "speaking in tongues" or "worship styles" or "the role of women" or "end times views" or....
You may not believe this but we have had people (a few, not many) walk into Crossroads, ask what our opinion is of Rick Warren, and then either stay or leave according to our response!! How does that grab you?
I'll stop for now and post some other musings later. Let me know what you think of the whole "tolerance and diversity" thing.
1. The essentials of what I believe--things I'm willing to die for that are clearly taught in Scripture.
2. Things that I feel strongly about but am not willing to die for (beliefs that are important to me yet aren't clear enough in Scripture for me to get fanatical about, therefore I agree to disagree with others in these areas).
3. Things that fit in the "who-gives-a-rip" category. Things not worth fighting about or wasting time on.
As I look over the church landscape I'm saddened. So many of our churches are fighting and dying for things that I believe fall under number 2 or 3. I'm not talking about things like the deity of Christ (a category #1 all the way). I'm talking about things like "your opinion of Rick Warren" or "views of baptism" or "speaking in tongues" or "worship styles" or "the role of women" or "end times views" or....
You may not believe this but we have had people (a few, not many) walk into Crossroads, ask what our opinion is of Rick Warren, and then either stay or leave according to our response!! How does that grab you?
I'll stop for now and post some other musings later. Let me know what you think of the whole "tolerance and diversity" thing.
posted by Pastor Phil Print at 12:02 PM
25 Comments:
I'm actually in the middle of a sort of "rift" with one of my closest friends, and it's over #'s 2 and 3, not 1. Things like feminism, equality between men and women in God's eyes, stay-at-home moms vs. working moms, etc. It's hard because as far as #1 goes, we're on the same page, but we're almost polar opposites with some of the #2's and #3's that it's been hard to agree to disagree (even though I know that's the right thing to do).
As far as tolerance goes, I was in an discussion recently about tolerance where someone posed the question on tolerance. One person said that they believed Jesus was the perfect example of tolerance, while another was quick to say that Jesus wasn't tolerant in the least bit...driving in the car a thought popped in my head about this very subject. What it boiled down to in my mind was simply this: How could Jesus not be tolerant? God doesn't force us to believe His truths, nor does He force us to read our Bibles, come to church, or do anything else as Christians. We continue to sin every day, and continue to ask God to forgive us. If that isn't the most incredible display of tolerance, I don't know what is.
Christ was tolerant of people, but not of thier sin. Unfortunately words like tolerance have been hijacked by people with an agenda. They redifine tolerance, and are completely intolerant unless you agree with them.
Chris
Excellent subject! To elaborate on what mrclm said:
I think that as Christians, we must make a distinction between tolerance & acceptance. Maybe we should 'tolerate' everyone & just about everything, but accept personal convictions only on the basis of God's revealed truth.
I believe that it's important to understand that Jesus/God doesn't 'tolerate' sin at all, but gave his life to abolish it. When we trust in his sacrifice to be accounted as our righteousness, he doesn't just tolerate us but he accepts & justifies us, just as if we've never sinned.
It seems that God gives us space/tolerates us for a season, in hopes that we embrace his remedy for sin, but if we assume that Jesus is tolerant of sin & sinners outside of this provision, we make him to be as corrupt & perverse as the rest of us.
Maybe there should be only one thing that should get our knickers in a bind. Maybe it should be the damnable heresy that there is salvation in anyone/anything other than Jesus?
For myself, a core belief is that the Bible is the word of God, timeless and true. (Would I die for this? Wow. Unknown, but it's certainly a litmus test for attending a church.)
My understanding of the Bible is limited. I need pastors/scholars to explain which teachings are culture-bound. Should women wear hats in church? Should women become teachers or elders or pastors? Is divorce an option? Should people drink alcohol? Should I be baptized as an adult? I need to trust the church's authority in these matters.
And so, the church's stance on lesser issues looms larger if it contradicts Scripture. I would not attend a church that thinks it's wrong to use musical instruments in worship because this view seems contrary to the book of Psalms.
I'm not overly concerned with Pastor Phil's opinion of Rick Warren, so long as he doesn't want to marry him.
Just so everyone (belle_south) knows--I think Rick Warren is a swell guy but I do NOT want to marry him. I think the Bible's pretty clear on that one. I also think the Bible's real clear that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. Speaking of the Bible, our denomination was founded on a question: Where is it written? I love the question and the principle--when the Bible clearly speaks, we speak. When it doesn't, we give slack/grace...we agree to disagree agreeably. It also puts the onus of responsibility on us to know what the Bible says.
I so appreciate all this dialogue. I find myself in agreement with others who have said there is a difference between tolerance and acceptance. As I search to make meaning of the Bible, I also appreciate what Pastor Phil says about needing to KNOW the Bible. I believe the Bible was and STILL IS the word of God, so it is as applicable today as it was yesterday. That has also gotten me into a "rift" with believing friends. What I would would say is clearly defined as against God's Word (homeosexual behavior for example) is what my friend would say is not, so should be in category 3. What friend puts in category 2 (Jesus knows hearts so living together wihtout legal marriage is okay) I would say is clearly not okay in Scripture. We have struggled in our discussions with tolerance/diversity/acceptance/
judgment. I can always love my friend, but I struggle with how to tolerate her sin, or even if I should. We are now in a period of deep disconnect because I confronted her in love as a fellow believer. The attitude of "whatever works for you" just isn't working for me these days.
Hey searcher119-
Oddly enough, in the many years that I've walked with Christ, I've never had to apply Paul's advice "not to keep company" with one who is called a brother/sister, who is also a blatant fornicator…(1 Cor 5:11).
It always seemed to me that someone who denies the obvious texts in scripture is not a true believer at all. In deed, the very word 'believer' betrays them. What is it that we are professing to believe in, if not the Bible & it's revelation of Christ?
In these passages, Paul also tells us not to disassociate ourselves with & 'judge' those who are 'without' the faith. So, I'd hate to see you lose a friend over an issue that they don't understand, when maybe someday you could convince them that there is deliverance found in Jesus!
For whatever it's worth. You of course know the situation better than I.
Your colleague in Christ.
dmpp & passionate - thanks for the wisdom. To be clear, the friend I referenced is indeed a Christian. I wouldn't want to be judgmental of a person who might not know the Word. But the rollercoaster with this believing friend has me exhausted also, and wanting to give up. I still pray, but I don't have much energy for this relationship, either. dmpp - I am perplexed also. I believe the Bible is our guide for 1,2,3, but clearly other "Christians" feel differently. So if this friend is a Christian in name only, what is my reaction? Pray from a distance so as not to be dragged down myself? Or pray harder for me to have the energy to really get in there and eventually see a change in my friend? Something else?
For those still following this thread (and for Phil) I'll point you all to something I watched today that really hits this subject well. I watched a Vodcast (video podcast - a downloadable video) of a sermon given by Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, WA this past July covering 1 Cor 10:23-11:1 earlier today (it's an hour long). If you are trying to figure out how this works out in our day to day life, I think Mark nails it on the head here. The sermon is titled "Glorifying God" (you can get it via iTunes or at http://media.marshillchurch.org/. I promise this will not be a wasted hour of your life. Mark Driscoll is leading the largest Evangelical church in one of the least Christian cities in the country, and he regularly interact with how to meet our culture with Christ. Mark is a very gifted communicator, is enormously funny, while bringing hard Biblical Truths to the table. He is a bit edgy for those not familiar with him.
Big Chris
mrclm- i can't listen to driscoll via video podcast, but i did find the series 'vintage jesus'. great down-to-earth guy, great apologetic message! thanks for the tip!
lately i've been blown away by andrew womack. ever hear of him? his re-ocurring theme is regarding the believer's position in christ & our authority because of it. life changing stuff!
Just as a follow up, I should have mentioned that the videos of Mark Driscoll are very large. Many/most exceed 250MB, which means you MUST have high speed internet, or spend an entire day downloading a single message. I burn his videos to CD's, and can only fit 2 per disk on most sermons.
Looking forward to the new series Phil! We might be bringing some friends, and a blind guy from our neighborhood who is "seeking" at this point.
Big Chris
I'm a Driscoll fan too. Just read his book Confessions of a REformission Rev. He tells it like it is. Haven't heard of Womack. Back to the conversation--I think one thing that's helped me with the whole tolerance issue is the difference between "approval, agreement, and acceptance". I can accept anyone as a person of worth...a person who matters...a person who's welcome at Crossroads, etc. regardless of their theology or lifestyle; BUT, that doesn't mean I have to approve of their behavior or agree with their anti-Biblical beliefs. And that doesn't mean that they are welcomed into membership or given a position of leadership in the church.
hey amazed1, how've ya been?
i hope you don't think me a limp-wrist because of my comments.
if so, go ahead & ask some questions so i can explain myself.
your bud!
amazed1-
i hear what you're saying, but i think we need to clarify what/who the 'church', is when discussing discipline.
it's my opinion that what we call 'church' in our modern culture, is a combination of the old testament jewish law/traditions (which it shouldn't be), the church of rome's influence (which also shouldn't be) & a bit of new testament structure (which of course should be). therefore, what we call a 'pastor' probably resembles more of a jewish & catholic priest than it does what's been very briefly mentioned in scripture. in fact to a large degree, it's down-right heresy when a position is elevated to be a 'mediator between god & man'. i digress. anyway, the buildings & denominations that we attend on various days of the week certainly are not the complete representation of the 'church' or body of christ. so, it is my opinion that any such 'church' discipline that you've referred to, would pretty much have to take place within the circle of believers that a 'fornicator' fellowships with, in order for it to be effective.
in our current 'church' culture, any such discipline would probably have to come from...like a person's small group or something.
i of course am not speaking for pastor phil, nor do my opinions represent cr when saying such things.
what do you think of my opinions?
Amazed1- ok, I've read this again & I'm finally figuring out your concern. Duh..sorry!
my 1st response was my thoughts regarding the 'church' discipline of someone who considers themselves a believer but is living in open rebellion/sin.
My thoughts on the 'church's' role with judging/disciplining those who are 'without', or outside the church is:
We of course are supposed to try to win them over with love & patience, understanding that not long ago we too were deceived, 'without God & without hope in the world'.
What else are we supposed to do with them?
hi amazed1-
what i meant when i said "the buildings & denominations that we attend on various days of the week certainly are not the complete representation of the 'church' or body of christ." was, that what we currently call church is not really the body of christ. we say 'let's go to church' & this to us means that we go to a building with a bunch of people that we may or may not even know, who may or may not even know God, to hear a sermon, & we call this 'church'. however the 'church' more literally means 'the body of Christ'. therefore, if i'm fellowshiping with a few like-minded believers, i'm fullfilling paul's exortation to 'not forsake the assembling of yourselves together...', even if i never ever attend a 'church'. that's all i'm saying. i think our culture puts too much stock in going to 'church' but not enough in the real purpose for it, which is to encourage each other in the Lord!
i challenge you to do a bible study on the theme of 'pastor' & see if you can conclude that our current structure is biblical!
Amazed1- I agree that we've expended this topic. I also agree that we always come around to agreeing with each other on most everything.
I am impressed that you are very opened to challenging traditional ideas through examining scripture! That's critical, because we know that historically the most commonly accepted ways are often not the most correct.
I've recently come to understand that the way we came to Christ in the first place, is the same way we grow in Him (gal 3.3). It all of course comes through faith in His righteousness & truth instead of faith in ourselves. This clarity has revolutionized my understanding of new testament doctrine.
If we're in agreement on gal 3.3, can you & I discuss the process of salvation & sanctification?
If you are interested, can you tell me what you understand regarding our 3 part make-up; spirit, soul & body (1 thes 5.23)?
sounds good amazed. i don't mean to put you on the spot, nor do i mean to be condescending, but some things have clicked for me recently & i'm bursting to tell everyone i know! they are real basic things that tie all the epistles together with the gospels. principles that many people may already know, but have taken me over 25 years to figure out!
To summarize what I've come to understand in a simple basic statement, would be to say that when we get born-again we get the complete package of; eternal life, the righteousness of Christ, faith…all imparted to us & sealed in our spirit. This gives us a sinless nature, one which is in total fellowship with God & cannot be defiled. in our spirits, we are no longer sinners by nature. However, our soul (mind & emotions) have to begin believing & agree with our new spirit, to subject our bodies & to manifesting the fruitfulness/holiness that's already taken place in our spirit!
This is what paul, peter, john…talks about when proclaiming that we're free from sin (also no condemnation over it), so why should we continue living in it!
Sorry for being so dull, but I never quit understood all that. most of scriptures relating to salvation & sanctification are finally making real sense to me!
amazed1- sister, where'd you go?
maybe you already understood what i said, you don't, or you just haven't visited the blog in awhile. i don't know about you, but the understanding that my spirit is redeemed, secure & complete, but my soul & flesh have not yet been regenerated, has made all the difference in the world to me, as to interpreting the new testament!
any comments?
Hi amazed1, thanks for engaging. You truly are my blog fellowship partner!
Sorry you're not feeling well!
I'm afraid I don't have enough time this week to get into a lot of chapter & verse with this subject, but we sure can as time goes on. As you may know, we can follow a thread even after it's gone from the home page. You just have to go into the appropriate archived topic.
The one passage that I can think of off-hand is john 3:3-, where Jesus talks about being born-again. He says that we're not born of the flesh but the spirit. He also says that we can only worship God 'in spirit & in truth'. Basically every scripture on the subject of salvation goes along with what I'm saying. Paul's writings make complete sense when viewed in light of spirit, soul, body. The spirit (inner man) is regenerated, but we continually have to buffet our bodies & renew our minds through the word, in order to walk in the spirit & not in the flesh (body/soul). There is nothing that you'll find that contradicts this doctrine!
I have been hearing this for a while & have prayed/meditated it through to my understanding. I can't tell you how much this revelation has impacted me. I now more perfectly understand the conflict of how 'the spirit wars against the flesh…'. I realize that victories & defeats do not affect our salvation, but only our effectiveness.
I'm finally confident that I'm really saved. I understand how that I'm not justified through the works of my flesh, but by Jesus' giving me a new spirit, which is created in His own image! This is truth that has set me free! Before this was clear to me, the devil had a lot of room in my soul to bring me fear, guilt & condemnation. Now that I know my spirit/new nature is secure, I understand that 'nothing can separate me from the love of God'!
amazed1- I too always believed the bible & knew that a change occurred in me when I accepted Jesus, but I never understood the dynamics. I have always heard that it's my soul that's been renewed. therefore I was very confused whenever I sinned. in the back of my mind I have wondered if I've grieved away God's spirit, if I ever really got born-again...etc. I always felt my position with God was vulnerable & based on my performance. I didn't know how to interpret 1 jn 3:8-9, or Jesus' comment that "except your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes…". Being saved was always a theory to me, off in the future more than something that I actually already possessed.
You said "I'm not saying I'm perfect…". I want to challenge you into understanding that if you've been born-again, you are perfect & your spirit is as holy as it's ever going to be (heb 12:23 & many many more)!
I believe that we also must understand that it's not individual sins that separate people from God, but it's because we're born sinners by nature & are unregenerate. That's why we can't fellowship with a holy God. This of course can only be rectified by being born-again! This is what Paul talks of exhaustively in Romans.
I'm beginning to understanding that knowing these things are imperative as to our relating to people, & being able to 'come boldly into His throne of grace'!
This is rock-solid doctrine sister. If you get it, great! If not, I'll work with you until you do. Like I said, it took me over 25 years! I still haven't arrived into complete understanding, but I have departed from the error that I held!
Amazed1- thanks for sticking with this!
Based on your remarks, I'd say you're on your way to understanding this. Can we continue?
I beg to differ with you, my good sister. Since you've been born-again you've received a sinless NATURE, the nature of Christ, the nature man had before the fall. You are no longer a slave to sin. You have become 'the righteousness of God in Christ'. This is not just figurative, but ACTUAL! You are PERFECT in SPIRIT! This is the only way for you to be acceptable to God.
The other things that you've mentioned, not swearing, reading bible... are fruit from that nature. However, your body & soul (=flesh) have not yet been redeemed/made holy. They are no holier than they've ever been & won't be until heaven. The works of the flesh are not what justifies or make us any different/better than anyone else. 'By the works of the law shall no man be justified', 'we have this treasure in earthen vessels'…etc.
Of course, when we walk in the Spirit & not the flesh, we can be a blessing, accomplish kingdom business, glorify God, thwart the works of the devil & be healthier happier people, but that's not what MAKES us holy!
We ARE holy based on our new, God given holy nature!
Like I said, you will not find anything that contradicts what I'm saying. It's flowing naturally from me, based on the entire THEME of the new testament as well as individual verses.
Please don't be offended by my confidence & persistence. This is about you getting the blessing you should have, not about me being more right. Ok?
Also remember that we can still dialogue after this thread falls off the main page.
Hey Warrior - thanks for replying! Now that I recall, you have been a gracious blogger, more so than me.
As an fyi, amazed1 & I have kind of left the 'tolerance & diversity' subject & have moved on to the doctrine/dynamics regarding who we are & what we have in Christ as a result of the new birth.
I'd say you summed it up well, with your 3 point synopsis! of course there is infintetly more blessings that we receive with the new nature than just salvation. we become joint heirs with Christ & get the blessing of Abraham. We have all this now, not just later in heaven!
I have not had clear teaching regarding this until recently, & therefore have labored under confusion leading me into legalism, self-righteousness & condemnation. As I've said previously, I haven't arrived but I have departed.
I totally agree with you regarding the modern church structure. I think I commented on that earlier in this thread.
I guess the way I look at it is; it is what it is, meaning it's what God has to work through, & therefore we have some obligation to submit & participate.
I will belong to a local fellowship, but I won't be tyrannized by it.
That may sound absurd, but believe it or not, I was tyrannized at the church I spent the 1st 20 years of my adult, saved life!
warrior - in general, i think you nailed it!
i sincerely like CR, & it's a far better atmosphere then my previous experience. the message here is primarily practical bible application. that's been good for my family, as my previous experience had none of that & far too much over-spiritulization of everything & an emphasis on holiness through the law. CR, i beleive, has a niche for attracting people on the fringe, which i think is a necessary niche.
however, i do full-heartedly agree that we could do a better job at strengthening the believers in the fundamental doctrines like those we've been discussing. i'm not sure why i had to find these things out elsewhere, but i did & they've set me free! if my needs were completely met in the local church, i'd be more apt to be more full heartedly committed here!
do you attend a local fellowship?
Warrior -
You asked if the pursuit of knowledge is what keepst us from grasping the foundational truths of the bible.
I think that certainly is a contributing factor, especially when the important things are sooo simple! However, I think another big factor is that we strive to be justified through our works. When we compare ourselves with ourselves & we set the standard, we can have a proud edge over our fellows. Know what I mean? I don't know why I never saw the truth that 'I've been made the righteousness of Christ' when I've read Romans dozens of times!
Also, thanks for the encouragement & it's been a pleasure speaking with you too, my brother!
Shame we may have lost amazed1, when we've got such good things for her!
Post a Comment
<< Home