Q & A, 4
Q: Do you tithe before or after taxes are taken out...gross or net income?
A: (#1 question asked) I know when my wife and I started tithing 25 years ago we tithed on what we had to take money from--our net income. The government's money went to the government. What we had left we channeled into 3 streams: 10% to God's work, 10% into savings, and live on the rest (80%). If you've never tithed before start with your net/after-tax income.
There are a lot of differences of opinion on this question. I've read them all and don't think you can make a strong argument that one's better than the other. The best thing to do is to start. Years later you can raise your giving level. You can tithe on your gross income or give 15% or more. Tithing is "a floor not a ceiling"...it's a good Biblical starting point not a stopping point.
A: (#1 question asked) I know when my wife and I started tithing 25 years ago we tithed on what we had to take money from--our net income. The government's money went to the government. What we had left we channeled into 3 streams: 10% to God's work, 10% into savings, and live on the rest (80%). If you've never tithed before start with your net/after-tax income.
There are a lot of differences of opinion on this question. I've read them all and don't think you can make a strong argument that one's better than the other. The best thing to do is to start. Years later you can raise your giving level. You can tithe on your gross income or give 15% or more. Tithing is "a floor not a ceiling"...it's a good Biblical starting point not a stopping point.
posted by Pastor Phil Print at 1:33 PM
11 Comments:
Let me preface what I am about to say that I support cheerful giving - in fact I would say that that Christians should strive to give 'everything' to God, because everything we have is from the Lord. I also do not aim to be divisive.
But it is simply disturbing, and saddeding, that the church has been devoting so much time to referencing 'tithing' and not giving. Nowhere in the New Testament is a tithe referenced as applicable to post Resurrection Christians. What the new testament DOES say is that Christians should be cheerful givers and not under compulsion (which is what a tithe is.)
II Corinthians 9:7
But what upsets me most is this new premise that for those people that do not acknowledge tithes - that a 10% tithe is a starting point. This is a gross fallacy- because every reference to giving in the New Testament is a complete transition from the old testament, and again tithing is not mentioned in this context either. Christ gave us a total paradigm shift. Yet somehow--the tithes of the OT still have to be brought into the picture by churches when they simply have no place in the discussion.
Gracious (Grace)Giving is something that can be defined in so many ways: time, money, work, goods, care. Our lives should revolve around this pattern of thinking. Christianity is a total life transformation - that focuses on love, loving others because God loved us. Mark 12:30-31.
I don't understand what the point is in even referencing a 10% tithes. If we keep our eyes on Christ, we will serve Him 100% in everything we do..
In the New Testament, people supported the church by allowing disciples to stay in their homes and feeding them meals. Our modern system is different - we pay them salaries.
This is a good system. I'm not sure I can allow James Brown to live in my basement. It's got new carpeting and all, and I don't know if he's housebroken.
(That's a joke. Pastor James is amazing, and he can crash here any time.)
The church is dependent on the support of its members, and so they have to remind us to give.
DO NOT stop attending church if you are unable to tithe or uncomfortable with giving. It's okay. We still want you. We still value you. We are all flawed members of a Christian family. Some of us are better with financial matters than with prayer matters or Biblical knowledge or volunteerism. Just do the best you can and let God continue to shape you.
Philosopher, I addressed your argument in my message "The Lost Art of Trusting God" a few weeks ago. You can listen on-line by following the Crossroads Church link.
Let's say the OT doesn't exist and Jesus doesn't mention it in Matthew 23 and there's no such thing as tithing. Let's say we go with the NT teaching which clearly teaches sacrificial, regular, cheerful giving. How would we define sacrificial giving--what measuring line would we use? The reason I like to start with 10% is that it's a good goal. It's something measurable we can shoot for and then once we hit it we can keep going. Without something like that, it's so easy for us all to cop out and get fuzzy and find excuses to essentially give nothing. I'm not a legalistic 10% tithe person, but I see it as a great starting point. I'm also totally OK with you disagreeing with me.
Also, tithing is better than octoing or dozening because all you have to do is move the decimal point one space to the left.
One more thought on the tithe/giving series:
I remember a while back when California was experiencing extraordinary financial difficulties. The state ran out of money and paid the state employees with vouchers. Vouchers! IOU's!
Most of us don't have to remind the company to set money aside for our paychecks. It is a bummer that pastors have to do this.
I must say (go figure), that I believe the spirit of giving was captured very well in the dialogue laid-out in the previous comments. Philosopher has summarized the NT concept of giving, belle-south has incorporated the evolution of our current church structure (albiet I'm not quit sure if she understands that we're all called to be disciples & to do "the work of the ministry") & Pastor Phil has dove-tailed the 2.
Like Philosopher, I too have been opposed to any reference to the law (tithe) under our new covenant, since the epistles of Paul are very clear regarding that. However, I've discovered that the tithe, in one form or another, has been around prior to the law. For instance, Cain & Able were required to sacrifice & Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizadek. Therefore, the concept of consistent giving to one's 'storehouse' (where one is fed?) does seem to transcend both covenants. The NT amount however, seems to be "whatsoever you purpose in your heart" & "according to how the Lord has blessed you".
I suppose we could forever argue whether or not our current church structure is more God or Roman Empire inspired, but I don't think anyone could argue regarding our obligation to give to something that we all benefit so much from.
I have learned more here by accident then elsewhere by design!
I'm not sure why Passionate feels I do not understand doing the "work of the ministry." Service. Ministry. Giving. Praying. Bible study. All these things are important and essential to the church, but as individuals, we're at different places on the discipleship continuum.
Okay. Perfect Christian wakes up at 5 a.m., prayers and meditates for one hour before heading to work. Perfect Christian is a shining example to all at the workplace, never raising his voice, never complaining, always displaying the fruit of the Spirit. During the day, Perfect Christian invites 8 people to church and converts a dozen heathens. On his lunch hour, Perfect Christian loads up his car with groceries and drops them at the Food Shelf. Perfect Christian listens to KTIS on his commute and gives generously to the KTIS ministry. Perfect Christian never watches T.V. because the programming is corrupt and Katie Couric's skirts are too short. After work, Perfect Christian pays the bills. The first check is written to the church, 10% of the gross no less! Perfect Christian reads the Bible to his children while fixing a tuna casserole so his wife can take a hot bath. Nine unexpected guests drop by for dinner, and Perfect Christian extends hospitality along with inspirational cheese puffs that are inscribed with Proverbs. After dinner, Perfect Christian stops by church and rewires the entire sound system. Then, Perfect Christian meets with his Life Group to plan a mission trip to Oakdale. Perfect Christian comes home, takes out the trash, prays in tongues for the neighbor who lets her dog leave gigantic deposits on his lawn, and then studies the Bible for an additional hour before going to sleep. Perfect Christian is reading the book of Numbers - not the fun part about Balaam - but the more boring stuff, because Perfect Christian is passionately in love with Scripture.
My point is that you should attend church even if you are not the Perfect Christian. Tithing and giving are matters of faith. New believers sometimes hear the tithing message and quit going to church because they are not ready to make that commitment.
hey belle- sorry, i didn't mean it like that. i'm sure you're much more of a gracious servant than i am!
i was refering to the NT doctrine that all who are in Christ are in the priesthood, have equal annointings & access to God. there is no NT basis for a destinction between clergy & laity. i'm not sure many people really understand that.
are we cool?
Hmmm.... It seems to me that the "apostles" had the clergy status and the laity referred to as "believers" or "disciples" (Acts 5:12.) Then later, it seems like the church leaders are called "elders." (Acts 14:23. Titus 1:6-9.)
I see also that a tithe is not specified in 1 Cor 16:1-3.
But I am not a Biblical scholar! And we are cool.
Yes belle- there is NT precedent for giftings & callings. However, I believe it is more of the roman empire than scriptural precedent that has given us our current church-building & hierarchical structure.
belle_south, thank you for your piece on "Perfect Christian"...I can SO relate (except I usually get up 4:30 am for prayer and meditation and sometimes do watch Katie Couric). Were you thinking of me when you wrote it? Just wondering.
Er... uh ... (mulling the consequences of bearing false witness) ... perhaps and just possibly maybe I was!
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